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"The thinker and his thoughts are the outcome of desire; and without understanding desire,
which is the self placed at any level, high or low, the mind is ever caught in ignorance."
{Commentaries on Living: First Series, Stillness and Will, page 212}
which is the self placed at any level, high or low, the mind is ever caught in ignorance."
{Commentaries on Living: First Series, Stillness and Will, page 212}
(Page last updated - July 20, 2008}
"The zero contains all the numbers"
{Krishnamurti: A Biography, by Pupul Jayakar, Chapter 43, pp. 453-59}
K: "We have posed the question whether the brain can realize the truth, that there is eternity or no eternity. How do we begin to enquire? How do you feel into this question diligently, a question that has been asked by man for thousands of years? Is man bound to time forever? Or is there - or can there be - actually within the brain a realization, for itself, that there is a state of eternity?
PJ: How do you proceed into this? You started by drawing a distinction between the brain and the mind. Would you elaborate?
K: The brain is conditioned. That conditioning is brought about by knowledge, memory, experience. The brain is limited. So to discover something new there has to be a period, even temporarily, when thought is not in movement, when it is in abeyance. ...
PJ: For us, the operation of the brain has been the operation of thought.
K: Yes, the movement of the brain, the part of the brain being used, is conditioned by thought. Thought is always limited, conditioned to conflict. ... Mind is a totally different dimension that has no contact with thought. Let me explain. The brain which has been functioning as an instrument of thought, that brain has been conditioned; and so long as that part of the brain remains in that state, there is no entire communication with the mind. So when there is no functioning of thought, there is communication, which is a totally different dimension; that can communicate with the brain using thought.
PJ: You are postulating a state outside the realm of thought?
K: That's it. That is outside the realm of time.
PJ: ... You will still use thought. Its content will undergo change, but the mechanism of thought will continue.
K: Now, thought is the chief instrument we have. After thousands of years of friction, that instrument has been made dull. It cannot go beyond its own tether. ...
PJ: ... It is only in the present that I can contact the whole of this edifice. ...
K: The present is the past and the future. The present is moving. The present is a thousand years of the past being modified, and the future is 'now,' the present.
PJ: The present is also not static... So what is it that you actually observe?
K: The fact that the present is the whole movement of time and thought. Can one see the truth of that? Can one have insight, perception into the fact, that the now is all time and thought?
PJ: Does that perception emanate from the brain? ... Does it arise within the brain?
K: Yes, or does it arise outside the brain? Is it within the sphere of the brain, or is there insight that comes when there is freedom from conditioning? This insight, this mind, is supreme intelligence.
PJ: I don't follow.
K: ... You may have an occasional insight, but this insight we speak about is the comprehension of totality, a perception of completeness... That insight is part of that brain which is a different dimension. ... Insight cannot arise so long as there is time, thought.
PJ: Which comes first? I cannot start with insight. I can only start with observation.
K: You can only start by seeing that psychological time is always limited, and so whatever it does will be limited. Time and thought have brought havoc in the world. You can see that. The question is, can that limitation ever end? Or is man to live forever in that condition? ... Look, Pupul, let us be simple. Time and thought have divided the world. Can't you see the fact of that?
PJ: No, Sir. I don't see the fact. The moment I see the fact, I would stop time and thought. If it such a simple thing - but it is not....
K: Can you have an insight that the movement of thought and time... is the realm of endless conflict?
PJ: You can see it outside in the world.
K: If you see it outwardly, then inwardly can you see that the psyche is time and thought? The divisive psychological movement has created the outer divisive fact. ...
PJ: ... One can see it as a movement of time, thought, but within it all, there is a sense of 'I exist.' That is essentially the problem. Why don't I see it?
K: Because I have thought of the psyche as other than the conditioned state. I have thought there is something in me, in the brain, which is timeless, and if I could reach that then everything would be solved. ...
PJ: What is the nature of the ground from which insight springs?
K: Insight can only take place when there is freedom from time and thought.
PJ: This is an unending process.
K: No, it is not ...
PJ: Is it the brain that listens to what you say?
K: Yes. Then watch what happens.
PJ: It is quiet. ...
K: When it is quiet and listens, then there is insight ...
PJ: Is there anything further?
K: Oh yes, there is. A great deal more. Is listening a sound, ... or am I listening to what you are saying without the verbal sound? ...The present is the 'now.' In that is the whole movement of time thought, the whole structure of time - thought ends. The 'now' then has a totally different meaning. "Now,' then, is 'nothing.' Nothing in the sense that zero contains all the numbers. So 'nothing' contains all. But we are afraid to be nothing.
PJ: When you say nothing contains all, does it mean the whole racial environmental - nature - cosmos?
K: Yes, yes. Do you see the fact that there is nothing? The self is a bundle of memories; memories that are dead. They function, but they arise from a past that is over. If I have insight into that, it ends. I see that in the 'now' there is 'nothing.'
...Becoming is the accumulation of memory. This we call knowledge. So long as that movement exists, there is fear of being nothing. But when one sees the illusion of becoming... there is an ending of that. ...
'Nothing' then contains the whole universe. Not my petty little fears, anxieties, sorrows. After all... nothing means the entire world of compassion. Compassion is 'nothing,' and therefore that 'nothingness' is supreme intelligence. ...
Astrophysicists are trying to understand the universe. They can only understand in terms of the material world.... But they cannot understand the immensity of it; immensity as a part of the human being; not only there but here" - he placed his hands on his chest - "which means there must be no shadow of time and thought. That is real meditation. ...
***
PJ: ... The most difficult thing in the world is to be totally simple.
K: Yes. If one were really simple, from that one could understand the whole complexity of life. But we start with complexity and never see the simplicity. We have trained our brain to see the complexity, and try to find an answer to the complexity. But we don't see the extraordinary simplicity of facts.
... Why have human beings not faced the fact and changed the fact? Is it because we are living with ideas, ideals - unrealities? ... Mankind is me, and the 'me' is endless sorrow and so if you want to end sorrow there has to be an ending of the 'me.'
... A doctor in New York said the fundamental issue is whether the brain cells, which have been conditioned for centuries, could bring about a mutation. I said it is possible only through listening. But no one is willing to listen in its entirety. ...
You listen to the sound of the waves, of strong wind ... you get used to it all.
But if you don't, then sound has an extraordinary meaning. Then you hear everything afresh. You tell me time and thought are the whole movement of man's life. You have communicated a simple fact. Can I listen to it without the sound of the words?
Then I have captured the depths of that statement, and I can't lose it. I have listened to it in its entirety. ..."
~~~~~&~~~~~
Commentary:
#1: Contained within this dialogue are the central themes of all the talks. At the very core of it all is the following exchange:
K: "Insight cannot arise so long as there is time, thought.
PJ: Which comes first? I cannot start with insight. I can only start with observation.
K: You can only start by seeing that psychological time is always limited, and so whatever it does will be limited."
This statement of the limitation of thought/time is fundamental, appearing throughout the entire talks. It is clear that if one does not 'see' this fact directly then there is an inability to grasp the essence of the talks themselves. This 'seeing' is not an intellectualization, it is not through words. It is a direct perception, an instant realization that arises from a quiet mind, unencumbered by the thought process.
This seeing also appears to be analogous to insight, which throws into stark relief Jayakar's question - Which comes first: observation or insight?
There follows this exchange:
K: "The present is the past and the future. The present is moving. The present is a thousand years of the past being modified, and the future is 'now,' the present.
K:: The present is also not static.... So what is it that you actually observe?
K: The fact that the present is the whole movement of time and thought. Can one see the truth of that? Can one have insight, perception into the fact, that the now is all time and thought?"
Observe the fact of it. That comes first.
~~~~&~~~~
#2: Also contained in this passage is the tremendous significance of listening. This is passive listening of the highest order, a passivity that is hard to fathom with a mind concerned with constant action and reaction. For what is being posited is the extraordinary statement that it is the state of complete listening that is all important - not what one is listening to. The very listening itself to the fact of life - whatever that may be - is sufficient.
All reactions of the mind to what one is listening to block true listening.
~~~~&~~~~
#3: The zero contains all the numbers states clearly that nothingness, or emptiness, contains all. So the actual fear we have of being nothing is completely unwarranted and illusory. The fear is based on the word itself - nothing. The connotations and associations of the word mean we have an inbuilt resistance to it. In this goal-oriented society, to be "nothing" is the very antithesis of everything society and your peers say you should strive for.
There is an extraordinary irony here. The very thing that the self is determined to escape from is everything we have been searching for over the millennia. It is everything that the self is not. It is near, not far. It is within - which implies it is also without. The treasure is within, thus you are a light to yourself.
Can a single insight into the limitation of time/thought bring it about? And what is the nature of that insight?
#~~~~~~~#~~~~~~~#
K: "We have posed the question whether the brain can realize the truth, that there is eternity or no eternity. How do we begin to enquire? How do you feel into this question diligently, a question that has been asked by man for thousands of years? Is man bound to time forever? Or is there - or can there be - actually within the brain a realization, for itself, that there is a state of eternity?
PJ: How do you proceed into this? You started by drawing a distinction between the brain and the mind. Would you elaborate?
K: The brain is conditioned. That conditioning is brought about by knowledge, memory, experience. The brain is limited. So to discover something new there has to be a period, even temporarily, when thought is not in movement, when it is in abeyance. ...
PJ: For us, the operation of the brain has been the operation of thought.
K: Yes, the movement of the brain, the part of the brain being used, is conditioned by thought. Thought is always limited, conditioned to conflict. ... Mind is a totally different dimension that has no contact with thought. Let me explain. The brain which has been functioning as an instrument of thought, that brain has been conditioned; and so long as that part of the brain remains in that state, there is no entire communication with the mind. So when there is no functioning of thought, there is communication, which is a totally different dimension; that can communicate with the brain using thought.
PJ: You are postulating a state outside the realm of thought?
K: That's it. That is outside the realm of time.
PJ: ... You will still use thought. Its content will undergo change, but the mechanism of thought will continue.
K: Now, thought is the chief instrument we have. After thousands of years of friction, that instrument has been made dull. It cannot go beyond its own tether. ...
PJ: ... It is only in the present that I can contact the whole of this edifice. ...
K: The present is the past and the future. The present is moving. The present is a thousand years of the past being modified, and the future is 'now,' the present.
PJ: The present is also not static... So what is it that you actually observe?
K: The fact that the present is the whole movement of time and thought. Can one see the truth of that? Can one have insight, perception into the fact, that the now is all time and thought?
PJ: Does that perception emanate from the brain? ... Does it arise within the brain?
K: Yes, or does it arise outside the brain? Is it within the sphere of the brain, or is there insight that comes when there is freedom from conditioning? This insight, this mind, is supreme intelligence.
PJ: I don't follow.
K: ... You may have an occasional insight, but this insight we speak about is the comprehension of totality, a perception of completeness... That insight is part of that brain which is a different dimension. ... Insight cannot arise so long as there is time, thought.
PJ: Which comes first? I cannot start with insight. I can only start with observation.
K: You can only start by seeing that psychological time is always limited, and so whatever it does will be limited. Time and thought have brought havoc in the world. You can see that. The question is, can that limitation ever end? Or is man to live forever in that condition? ... Look, Pupul, let us be simple. Time and thought have divided the world. Can't you see the fact of that?
PJ: No, Sir. I don't see the fact. The moment I see the fact, I would stop time and thought. If it such a simple thing - but it is not....
K: Can you have an insight that the movement of thought and time... is the realm of endless conflict?
PJ: You can see it outside in the world.
K: If you see it outwardly, then inwardly can you see that the psyche is time and thought? The divisive psychological movement has created the outer divisive fact. ...
PJ: ... One can see it as a movement of time, thought, but within it all, there is a sense of 'I exist.' That is essentially the problem. Why don't I see it?
K: Because I have thought of the psyche as other than the conditioned state. I have thought there is something in me, in the brain, which is timeless, and if I could reach that then everything would be solved. ...
PJ: What is the nature of the ground from which insight springs?
K: Insight can only take place when there is freedom from time and thought.
PJ: This is an unending process.
K: No, it is not ...
PJ: Is it the brain that listens to what you say?
K: Yes. Then watch what happens.
PJ: It is quiet. ...
K: When it is quiet and listens, then there is insight ...
PJ: Is there anything further?
K: Oh yes, there is. A great deal more. Is listening a sound, ... or am I listening to what you are saying without the verbal sound? ...The present is the 'now.' In that is the whole movement of time thought, the whole structure of time - thought ends. The 'now' then has a totally different meaning. "Now,' then, is 'nothing.' Nothing in the sense that zero contains all the numbers. So 'nothing' contains all. But we are afraid to be nothing.
PJ: When you say nothing contains all, does it mean the whole racial environmental - nature - cosmos?
K: Yes, yes. Do you see the fact that there is nothing? The self is a bundle of memories; memories that are dead. They function, but they arise from a past that is over. If I have insight into that, it ends. I see that in the 'now' there is 'nothing.'
...Becoming is the accumulation of memory. This we call knowledge. So long as that movement exists, there is fear of being nothing. But when one sees the illusion of becoming... there is an ending of that. ...
'Nothing' then contains the whole universe. Not my petty little fears, anxieties, sorrows. After all... nothing means the entire world of compassion. Compassion is 'nothing,' and therefore that 'nothingness' is supreme intelligence. ...
Astrophysicists are trying to understand the universe. They can only understand in terms of the material world.... But they cannot understand the immensity of it; immensity as a part of the human being; not only there but here" - he placed his hands on his chest - "which means there must be no shadow of time and thought. That is real meditation. ...
***
PJ: ... The most difficult thing in the world is to be totally simple.
K: Yes. If one were really simple, from that one could understand the whole complexity of life. But we start with complexity and never see the simplicity. We have trained our brain to see the complexity, and try to find an answer to the complexity. But we don't see the extraordinary simplicity of facts.
... Why have human beings not faced the fact and changed the fact? Is it because we are living with ideas, ideals - unrealities? ... Mankind is me, and the 'me' is endless sorrow and so if you want to end sorrow there has to be an ending of the 'me.'
... A doctor in New York said the fundamental issue is whether the brain cells, which have been conditioned for centuries, could bring about a mutation. I said it is possible only through listening. But no one is willing to listen in its entirety. ...
You listen to the sound of the waves, of strong wind ... you get used to it all.
But if you don't, then sound has an extraordinary meaning. Then you hear everything afresh. You tell me time and thought are the whole movement of man's life. You have communicated a simple fact. Can I listen to it without the sound of the words?
Then I have captured the depths of that statement, and I can't lose it. I have listened to it in its entirety. ..."
~~~~~&~~~~~
Commentary:
#1: Contained within this dialogue are the central themes of all the talks. At the very core of it all is the following exchange:
K: "Insight cannot arise so long as there is time, thought.
PJ: Which comes first? I cannot start with insight. I can only start with observation.
K: You can only start by seeing that psychological time is always limited, and so whatever it does will be limited."
This statement of the limitation of thought/time is fundamental, appearing throughout the entire talks. It is clear that if one does not 'see' this fact directly then there is an inability to grasp the essence of the talks themselves. This 'seeing' is not an intellectualization, it is not through words. It is a direct perception, an instant realization that arises from a quiet mind, unencumbered by the thought process.
This seeing also appears to be analogous to insight, which throws into stark relief Jayakar's question - Which comes first: observation or insight?
There follows this exchange:
K: "The present is the past and the future. The present is moving. The present is a thousand years of the past being modified, and the future is 'now,' the present.
K:: The present is also not static.... So what is it that you actually observe?
K: The fact that the present is the whole movement of time and thought. Can one see the truth of that? Can one have insight, perception into the fact, that the now is all time and thought?"
Observe the fact of it. That comes first.
~~~~&~~~~
#2: Also contained in this passage is the tremendous significance of listening. This is passive listening of the highest order, a passivity that is hard to fathom with a mind concerned with constant action and reaction. For what is being posited is the extraordinary statement that it is the state of complete listening that is all important - not what one is listening to. The very listening itself to the fact of life - whatever that may be - is sufficient.
All reactions of the mind to what one is listening to block true listening.
~~~~&~~~~
#3: The zero contains all the numbers states clearly that nothingness, or emptiness, contains all. So the actual fear we have of being nothing is completely unwarranted and illusory. The fear is based on the word itself - nothing. The connotations and associations of the word mean we have an inbuilt resistance to it. In this goal-oriented society, to be "nothing" is the very antithesis of everything society and your peers say you should strive for.
There is an extraordinary irony here. The very thing that the self is determined to escape from is everything we have been searching for over the millennia. It is everything that the self is not. It is near, not far. It is within - which implies it is also without. The treasure is within, thus you are a light to yourself.
Can a single insight into the limitation of time/thought bring it about? And what is the nature of that insight?
#~~~~~~~#~~~~~~~#
"In listening, there is no time."
{Jayakar, A Biography, Chapter 32, page 372}
{Jayakar, A Biography, Chapter 32, page 372}
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